(2:30:04 PM) SparK_BR: HEY
(2:30:48 PM) SparK_BR: I am setting the default controls and what can and what cannot be changed on the options menu
(2:30:54 PM) SparK_BR: soon we will have our own .exe
(2:31:28 PM) SparK_BR: finishing this thing here i will join
(2:47:25 PM) The account has disconnected and you are no longer in this chat. You will be automatically rejoined in the chat when the account reconnects.
(3:34:50 PM) JGZinv: tis over
(3:35:19 PM) JGZinv: that wasn't you in there as the logan was it?
(4:00:11 PM) SparK_BR: no
(4:00:17 PM) SparK_BR: im compiling
(4:00:26 PM) SparK_BR: we will have our own .exe =D
(4:01:15 PM) JGZinv: hmm
(4:01:43 PM) JGZinv: what were you able to do in the options panel?
(4:05:13 PM) SparK_BR: erasing options we dont use
(4:05:21 PM) SparK_BR: and assigning default keys for new players
(4:05:39 PM) JGZinv: ah
(4:05:51 PM) SparK_BR: i can do anything with any part of the game now
(4:05:54 PM) SparK_BR: =D
(4:06:07 PM) SparK_BR: but it takes a while to understand this bad writen code
(4:06:35 PM) JGZinv: well it never was intended to be moddable... and it's 10 years old now
(4:06:51 PM) JGZinv: you're welcome to try looking at tach if this is "bad" ^_^
(4:07:13 PM) SparK_BR: if I look at tach i will end up rewriting it
(4:08:09 PM) JGZinv: well I think you probably understand why we picked scp for the basis of building FS
(4:08:29 PM) JGZinv: tach's just so unaccessible 
(4:10:14 PM) SparK_BR: yepp
(4:10:53 PM) JGZinv: it's not "that" different feature wise either
(4:11:34 PM) JGZinv: although I'm wonder if it wouldn't be to our benefit to scale everything down by say 10%
(4:11:43 PM) JGZinv: so as to not break collision detection, etc
(4:12:19 PM) JGZinv: instead of thousands of meters, use hundreds, and just scale the ships and everything down
(4:12:37 PM) SparK_BR: i can parse the values 11% bigger
(4:12:53 PM) JGZinv: not sure what that means
(4:13:05 PM) SparK_BR: instead of scale things down, scale values up
(4:13:11 PM) SparK_BR: same result
(4:13:23 PM) SparK_BR: i mean, unit wise
(4:13:31 PM) JGZinv: well I'm already doing that somewhat 
(4:13:41 PM) JGZinv: both tach and FS2 actually use meters
(4:13:49 PM) JGZinv: but they display them differently
(4:14:06 PM) JGZinv: and of course tach was far far faster in ship speed
(4:14:16 PM) SparK_BR: i can fix that
(4:14:24 PM) SparK_BR: or table values are enough?
(4:14:44 PM) SparK_BR: dont worry, it wont break collision detection
(4:14:47 PM) JGZinv: so far I've been doing it via tables and scale
(4:14:50 PM) SparK_BR: and if it breaks, i will fix it
(4:15:08 PM) JGZinv: I'm just thinking about our weapons problems et al....
(4:15:21 PM) JGZinv: of course tach actually has it's own issues with speed
(4:15:35 PM) SparK_BR: actually i have a formula i use in flash that tests pixels betwen new and old ship positions
(4:15:45 PM) JGZinv: anything about about 2000 thrust doesn't register powerup hits
(4:15:52 PM) JGZinv: *above
(4:16:19 PM) SparK_BR: you know, if she is going 15 pixels per frame, i test the 14 frames it wont be there
(4:16:26 PM) JGZinv: go about.... oh 5000+ and you can fly through bases and solid objects
(4:17:03 PM) SparK_BR: like if i have an object of 50 pixels on my screen, and its moving at 60 pixels per second, it might break collision, but not if i test the 10 pixels it jumped
(4:17:14 PM) SparK_BR: got it?
(4:17:33 PM) JGZinv: not really... even with what I know of video.. but if it works... ok
(4:17:34 PM) SparK_BR: 2 steps forward and 1 step back
(4:17:51 PM) JGZinv: just trying to think ahead a little
(4:17:54 PM) SparK_BR: do you mind if i draw? you wont be offended right?
(4:18:06 PM) JGZinv: nah
(4:18:13 PM) SparK_BR: ok, opening mspaint...
(4:18:46 PM) JGZinv: wish my greasmonkey script would work properly...
(4:25:14 PM) SparK_BR: ok
(4:25:17 PM) SparK_BR: i drew it
(4:25:33 PM) SparK_BR: http://files.fringespace.org/spark/misc/collision_problems.png
(4:26:31 PM) SparK_BR: http://files.fringespace.org/spark/misc/collision_problems.PNG
(4:26:39 PM) SparK_BR: extension is case sensitive
(4:26:55 PM) JGZinv: yeah evidently
(4:27:20 PM) SparK_BR: understood the problem we have with collision when speed is greater than the ship size?
(4:27:28 PM) SparK_BR: so i will have to fix it
(4:27:52 PM) JGZinv: it doesn't account for the previous frame - is what you're getting at?
(4:28:06 PM) SparK_BR: it doesnt account for the space betwen each frame
(4:28:11 PM) SparK_BR: the red area
(4:28:23 PM) JGZinv: hmm so essentially - like lag warping
(4:28:29 PM) SparK_BR: yepp
(4:28:37 PM) JGZinv: the space in between warps doesn't exist
(4:28:42 PM) SparK_BR: because the gray line is bigger than the ship size
(4:28:53 PM) SparK_BR: gray line is speed
(4:29:15 PM) JGZinv: yep I read it
(4:29:24 PM) JGZinv: understanding t fully is another matter ^_^
(4:29:32 PM) JGZinv: I have to understand the "why"
(4:29:40 PM) JGZinv: before the how... I'm weird that way
(4:29:43 PM) SparK_BR: speed is not what you think it is
(4:29:53 PM) SparK_BR: actually speed is just changing ship position each frame
(4:30:00 PM) JGZinv: more like rate of FPS right?
(4:30:05 PM) SparK_BR: yes
(4:30:18 PM) SparK_BR: each frame your ship jumps forward a little
(4:30:28 PM) SparK_BR: making the illusion of movement
(4:30:44 PM) JGZinv: yeah same idea in video and modeling
(4:30:52 PM) SparK_BR: exactly
(4:30:59 PM) SparK_BR: so if your ship is too fast
(4:31:08 PM) JGZinv: it skips info
(4:31:08 PM) SparK_BR: it will "move" more
(4:31:19 PM) SparK_BR: yes
(4:31:24 PM) SparK_BR: giving us a red line
(4:31:29 PM) JGZinv: you just about need a frame buffer
(4:31:38 PM) JGZinv: like a frame cache or something
(4:31:51 PM) SparK_BR: if you have an object or wall that fits in the red area...
(4:32:10 PM) SparK_BR: actually no, i just calculate the red area size and tell the engine to test those pixels too
(4:32:40 PM) SparK_BR: assentially i will be increasing ship size if it goes too fast
(4:32:49 PM) JGZinv: hmm... wouldn't that lower overall FPS then?
(4:32:56 PM) SparK_BR: (increasing mass if it is faster than light)
(4:32:57 PM) SparK_BR: XD
(4:33:03 PM) SparK_BR: a bit
(4:33:03 PM) JGZinv: due to more calculations per second
(4:33:11 PM) SparK_BR: just a little bit
(4:33:23 PM) SparK_BR: i would have a "bigger" ship only
(4:33:35 PM) SparK_BR: with invisible theorical parts
(4:33:38 PM) JGZinv: well hopefully they overhaul collision detection soon anyway
(4:33:49 PM) JGZinv: at scp
(4:33:54 PM) SparK_BR: if they dont, i will
(4:34:59 PM) SparK_BR: i will send a link to this image for them XD
(4:35:03 PM) SparK_BR: maybe it gives them ideas
(4:35:07 PM) JGZinv: heh
(4:35:54 PM) JGZinv: just realize they've had a long time to look at the code
(4:36:19 PM) JGZinv: they'll probably think you're acting noob-ish making up some easy solution
(4:36:36 PM) JGZinv: or be utterly confused - one or the other
(4:36:44 PM) SparK_BR: with 10 years making flash games? im not that noob at collision code
(4:37:33 PM) JGZinv: *shrug* I don't feel you're a noob... HLP and SCP in general are, difficult... to get in motion on things, and they already assume they know it all
(4:38:17 PM) JGZinv: so you get a new guy coming in... and it kicks them into "chew him up and spit him out" mode
(4:38:21 PM) SparK_BR: they accepted my idea!
(4:38:23 PM) SparK_BR: XD
(4:43:30 PM) JGZinv: I said you went through walls in tach
(4:43:42 PM) JGZinv: not that you went super fast in fs and went through walls
(4:43:48 PM) SparK_BR: oh
(4:43:50 PM) JGZinv: haven't tried it there yet
(4:44:01 PM) JGZinv: -__-
(4:44:27 PM) SparK_BR: dont tell it was you
(4:45:09 PM) SparK_BR: i dunno what to do
(4:45:11 PM) SparK_BR: XD
(4:45:16 PM) SparK_BR: im so embarassed
(4:45:21 PM) SparK_BR: sorry
(4:46:03 PM) JGZinv: I'll try to salvage it... but try o turn to convo to the actual code
(4:46:13 PM) JGZinv: ask them what needs to be done on it
(4:46:19 PM) JGZinv: etc etc
(4:46:37 PM) JGZinv: *try to turn the conversation to the code issue at hand
(4:49:33 PM) SparK_BR: that was close
(4:49:53 PM) SparK_BR: my reputation would go waaaaay down than it already is
(4:49:57 PM) SparK_BR: thnx
(4:51:40 PM) JGZinv: heh
(4:51:49 PM) JGZinv: just dangle something else in front of them
(4:51:59 PM) SparK_BR: i think it wouldnt work to scale everything down
(4:52:11 PM) SparK_BR: the camera would see the size difference
(4:52:23 PM) JGZinv: well it'd all be by a single factor
(4:52:24 PM) SparK_BR: you cant scale a camera
(4:52:30 PM) JGZinv: ships, bases, all of it
(4:52:39 PM) JGZinv: hmmmmm
(4:52:47 PM) SparK_BR: and the ship size would contribute to broken collision
(4:53:00 PM) JGZinv: I know there's a FOV control... but yeah.. cutscenes would be a major pain
(4:53:29 PM) JGZinv: darned if you do, darned if you don't
(4:53:47 PM) SparK_BR: i will take a look at weapons table, weapons code and collision detection later
(4:54:06 PM) SparK_BR: i still have to fix a problem with an include file i changed
(4:54:21 PM) SparK_BR: (change the include file, break every class that uses it)
(4:54:26 PM) SparK_BR: XD
(5:06:38 PM) SparK_BR: well... 119 commands reduced to 49 and now i have to type each one of the 70 that were left out and set them to -1
(5:07:46 PM) JGZinv: just do a find and replace
(5:09:09 PM) SparK_BR: how do i find what is not written? XD
(5:09:36 PM) SparK_BR: what was the F key for wingman command on tachyon?
(5:10:38 PM) JGZinv: let me pull out the key chart here...
(5:10:57 PM) JGZinv: F in tach was unused
(5:11:06 PM) JGZinv: wingman command was F9
(5:11:52 PM) JGZinv: http://fringespace.org/downloads/KeyScan.PNG
(5:12:51 PM) JGZinv: F2 ~F8 were hardly ever used...
(5:13:06 PM) JGZinv: by anyone ever... just either didn't work or was useless
(5:15:16 PM) JGZinv: 5 ~8 also largely unused far as I know
(5:16:00 PM) JGZinv: camera section on the chart... I don't think ever worked... 
(5:19:17 PM) SparK_BR: i think i can make the whole keyboard bindable to, now
(5:19:40 PM) SparK_BR: just changed settings to f1 to f10
(5:19:48 PM) SparK_BR: i really cant control f11 and f12 tough
(5:51:57 PM) JGZinv: that's not a big deal when we've gained 10 keys
(5:52:07 PM) SparK_BR: XD
(5:52:22 PM) SparK_BR: they posted something about gauges and shield thing on scp channel
(5:52:31 PM) JGZinv: yeah I'm half watching it
(5:52:33 PM) SparK_BR: it might be good for us
(5:52:40 PM) SparK_BR: if they ever commit it
(5:52:42 PM) JGZinv: not sure what the KK patch is
(5:53:01 PM) SparK_BR: maybe for gauge customization
(5:58:20 PM) JGZinv: I'll be away a bit, need to get some things done.
(5:58:30 PM) SparK_BR: do you know if chase camera or external camera are toggled or they work as press once you are gone?
(5:58:47 PM) JGZinv: in tach or fs2?
(5:58:55 PM) SparK_BR: fs2
(5:59:02 PM) SparK_BR: in tach they are press once
(5:59:09 PM) JGZinv: not sure - 
(5:59:15 PM) JGZinv: haven't sued them
(5:59:18 PM) JGZinv: *used
(5:59:32 PM) SparK_BR: k
(5:59:37 PM) SparK_BR: i will test later
(5:59:44 PM) JGZinv: personally, I wouldn't worry greatly about imitating tach's layout perfectly
(5:59:55 PM) JGZinv: due to the fact we can't bind everything
(6:00:10 PM) JGZinv: we should focus on what is needed by the player
(6:00:22 PM) JGZinv: instead of optional controls that might get used once
(6:01:27 PM) JGZinv: if anything, I might be concerned with how much we can convert the communications controls
(6:02:11 PM) JGZinv: and we may also wish to think if we want to leave a section dedicated to voice chat client basic keys
(6:02:27 PM) JGZinv: say between 1-3 or 4 keys free
(6:04:41 PM) SparK_BR: we have all the V.O.N. keys unused
(6:04:52 PM) SparK_BR: we could simulate a module
(6:07:43 PM) JGZinv: question - can you create additional menus like the communications menu in game?
(6:08:01 PM) SparK_BR: maybe
(6:08:04 PM) SparK_BR: never tried
(6:08:08 PM) JGZinv: most of the wingman commands are in that menu, instead of binding them indivudally
(6:08:20 PM) JGZinv: which I think is more efficient for us
(6:08:35 PM) JGZinv: would it help if I made up a new key chart for us?
(6:08:51 PM) SparK_BR: remember we need a push to talk button
(6:09:02 PM) JGZinv: so we can visually look at what we've got going here
(6:09:27 PM) SparK_BR: the keyboard is working as tachyon on my end, so try to bind keys to numpad mostly
(6:09:28 PM) JGZinv: all I'd need from you to make one, is tell me what I can't use of the keys on the board
(6:09:57 PM) JGZinv: the rest I can come up with and then we can figure out what is left over that we can put to use or need to create
(6:10:30 PM) JGZinv: Tach's VON though is different from say the curren chat clients of today some
(6:10:30 PM) SparK_BR: you cant use PAD7, PAD8 and PAD Period
(6:10:36 PM) JGZinv: so we don't per say need all of that
(6:11:00 PM) JGZinv: key pad? as in num pad or something else?
(6:13:24 PM) JGZinv: back over here
(6:13:46 PM) JGZinv: I got the GSC voice client support by asking the company behind it
(6:13:54 PM) JGZinv: but we're not talking anything major
(6:14:08 PM) JGZinv: it just recognizes the install directory, etc
(6:30:24 PM) JGZinv: trying to find a darn decent sized image of a keyboard to edit.... -__-
(6:31:02 PM) SparK_BR: use tach's
(6:31:20 PM) SparK_BR: replace logos and all, it will look funny
(7:11:29 PM) JGZinv: eh I'm halfway done with one
(7:11:42 PM) JGZinv: but i need to get on what I said earlier
(7:11:52 PM) JGZinv: so I'm be back and finish it in a bit
(7:12:02 PM) JGZinv: *I'll be
(7:13:23 PM) JGZinv: we probably need to research tachyon elements (keyboard)
(7:13:43 PM) JGZinv: basically you form a wing with people who accepts your invite
(7:14:02 PM) JGZinv: and that allows you to share points for kills and see each other's stats for S/H
(7:14:23 PM) JGZinv: need to find out if such a thing exists in Fso
(7:14:33 PM) JGZinv: probably if anywhere... it'd be in squadwar
(7:14:40 PM) JGZinv: anyways... be back later
(7:44:20 PM) SparK_BR: testing the build (finally)
(7:46:05 PM) The account has disconnected and you are no longer in this chat. You will be automatically rejoined in the chat when the account reconnects.
(9:19:04 PM) SparK_BR: hey
(9:19:07 PM) SparK_BR: things worked
(9:19:20 PM) SparK_BR: want me to upload the current .exe?
(9:19:51 PM) SparK_BR: im trying to invert the Y axis for new players by default
(9:23:38 PM) JGZinv: yeah put it up somewhere
(9:23:58 PM) SparK_BR: ok, will test the axis thing
(9:24:17 PM) JGZinv: im not entirely back
(9:24:17 PM) SparK_BR: our player files are called PLF
(9:24:29 PM) SparK_BR: and our multiplayer files are PLM
(9:24:36 PM) SparK_BR: instead of PL2 and PLR
(9:28:20 PM) SparK_BR: ok, testing
(9:28:25 PM) SparK_BR: if it works, i will upload
(9:37:24 PM) SparK_BR: it works!
(9:38:42 PM) SparK_BR: is your ftp working?
(9:44:44 PM) SparK_BR: ftp://peso.dreamhost.com/files/fs2_open_3_6_11r_fringe.exe
(9:45:04 PM) SparK_BR: it is in 10 minutes remaining
(9:45:14 PM) SparK_BR: and that's a lot even for windows
(9:45:18 PM) SparK_BR: so im going to sleep
(9:47:01 PM) SparK_BR is now known as SparK|Sleeping
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(11:41:07 PM) JGZinv: Sorry bud, but it says it's an invalid w32 application. Plus it's about half the size of the inferno exe. So I think the upload might have died mid stream.
(1/18/2010 2:22:04 AM) Backslash [Qeyleb@or-71-53-67-133.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] entered the room.
(2:28:04 AM) JGZinv: yo bax
(2:28:41 AM) Backslash: also hi
(2:28:52 AM) JGZinv: ah
(2:28:54 AM) Backslash: testing out a new chat client, didn't figure out the noises yet
(2:29:01 AM) JGZinv: which one?
(2:29:29 AM) Backslash: XChat
(2:29:34 AM) Backslash: seeing if I like it better than mIRC
(2:29:41 AM) JGZinv: ah... no experience with that one....sorry
(2:29:58 AM) JGZinv: what do you think of this - http://files.fringespace.org/jgz/Misc/FSKeysWIP1.gif
(2:30:01 AM) Backslash: me neither.  so far I like it.  it's very light.
(2:30:12 AM) Backslash: the chat, that is, lemme view link
(2:30:25 AM) JGZinv: http://files.fringespace.org/jgz/Misc/FSKeysWIP1.GIF
(2:30:29 AM) JGZinv: maybe that way?
(2:30:45 AM) JGZinv: spark said it was having trouble without capped extensions
(2:30:52 AM) Backslash: both work in my case
(2:31:08 AM) Backslash: depends on whether the file itself is capped or not I guess.  I saw that problem in his folder too.
(2:31:25 AM) Backslash: cancel that, the second one doesn't work
(2:31:31 AM) JGZinv: he tried compiling our own exe today... i don't think it uploaded though
(2:31:44 AM) JGZinv: did a lot of work on it too... tis a shame
(2:31:50 AM) Backslash: is ok I look at first one.  now what is this?
(2:32:01 AM) JGZinv: potential key layout
(2:32:09 AM) JGZinv: key in top right corner
(2:32:18 AM) JGZinv: explains color code
(2:32:34 AM) JGZinv: only been working on it since about 7 my time
(2:32:40 AM) Backslash: ok.  so far all the F keys can't be used until a major code upgrade :-/
(2:32:55 AM) JGZinv: according to spark he got F1 throug 10 working
(2:33:02 AM) JGZinv: F11 and 12 no
(2:33:04 AM) Backslash: ohm I guess he'll have to show me how then
(2:33:11 AM) JGZinv: lemme copy the chat log
(2:33:14 AM) JGZinv: send it to you
(2:33:16 AM) Backslash: k